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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 13, 2002 13:36:17 GMT -5
^^^Yes, that's the "fiscally incorrect" episode that I'm referring to. My point wasn't gender-based so much as how B&B weren't always mindful of catering to the tastes of its viewers and I was impressed by that! I thought "All right! That took COJONES!"(pardon my Espanol)
You made a valid point that the girl's perspective was also explored and confirmed by Nog when he wanted Jake to tell the whole story when he reported what happened.
It was still a justification of my belief that TPTB don't always have to "paint by the numbers" to write "good television."
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Post by Dohlman on Mar 13, 2002 16:05:58 GMT -5
I think there's a tremendous amount of pressure for show writers to write in the same style, in order to achieve 'continuity.'
Yes, I think she's the one.
Well, you'd need daycare. And I don't recall seeing any on any of the starships. Geordi may have accompanied his mother on missions, but he was probably older. And it would have to depend on the type of mission. It's convenient to mention the fact in passing, but dealing with it intelligently in a detailed story line is a different thing.
Sorry, Elric, but you're throwing me scraps here. I'm talking about a full-time character who's not relegated to flashbacks and an appendage to a main character.
Anyone's life experiences are a valid story. But I thought it was just a weak story line.
Can't argue there.
Can't answer that one. I'm not on staff at Paramount.
You must be joking.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 14, 2002 2:11:22 GMT -5
I think there's a tremendous amount of pressure for show writers to write in the same style, in order to achieve 'continuity.' Another valid point, Dohlman, but I can't help but think that it's more a matter of any attempt on any writer's part to not "follow the money," in other words literally "play favorites," tends to be discouraged if not sabotaged by sloppy editing. No, I'm not a conspiracy addict! I'm just trying to be realistic by thinking like a mercenary TV producer.In all fairness, they did show sections of the ship that resembled daycare facilities when children were featured on several TNG eps. Of course, they could easily have been classrooms that resembled daycare facilities. Maybe in the future, the lines may be blurred since time is relative in space.Correction: B&B are tossing the viewing audience table scraps! This is called "prompting the only logical conclusion from the audience." Thank you for participating, my dear. Of course they're extensions of the Main Characters, not self-sustaining characters in their own right! As much as I've been impressed by Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney as actresses as well as beautiful women, Uhura and Rand weren't nearly as fleshed out as they could have been, even if they were a concession on Roddenberry's part to keep the suits happy and adolescent sex fiends( ahem!) drooling for an hour of "quality television." You would think that feminism and contemporary corporate attitudes would have changed that as far as THE SPINOFFS were concerned! Yeah I'm dreaming, but it's a beautiful dream! Weak in the sense that it was not properly told or the episodes as presented were a half-hearted attempt to tell more interesting stories that wouldn't necessarily include "the star?" Now, now dear! Don't be nasty! It doesn't become you! Just because it hasn't hit it's stride yet, I wouldn't write off ENT just yet. How long did it take for TNG to be the show that grabbed the interest of the thirty-somethings and twenty-somethings among us? My personal thanks to the ladies and gentlemen who have contributed to this thread so far. If we reach "the magic number," there will either be a Part II or a new question will headline in this forum. I hope the people who contributed will be in attendence as well as "new faces." I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange!
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Post by Ana Ng on Mar 16, 2002 1:40:00 GMT -5
A point I'd like to make on DS9, which might explain why the female characters were the most fleshed-out and strong.
From reading various parts of the DS9 companion, I get the distinct impression that both Nana Visitor and Avery Brooks were heavily involved in seeing to it that their 24th century characters didn't fall into, or even, appear to fall into, 20th century prejudices and stereotypes.
For example, after shooting the pilot, Visitor approached TPTB and requested that Kira get a haircut. Kira's background was as a resistance member, as a soldier, and Visitor didn't think it was likely that Kira would be parading around in a fluffy 'do, that she'd be more likely to have a short, practical haircut she could simply run a hand through in the morning and be ready to go.
Elric mentioned Kasidy, and I will cite another example of the actors' influence on the characters on this point.
The original dialogue scripted for "What You Leave Behind" between Kasidy and Sisko when they speak for the last time after Sisko leaves to be with the Prophets was this:
Kasidy: But you won't be with us, will you? Sisko: I'll be closer than you think.
After reading the script, Brooks conveyed that he was troubled by this. The 24th century meaning of this dialogue is only sorrow, but the 20th century meaning had something more: A black woman was going to be left alone to raise her child. The producers understood his concern and changed the dialogue to this:
Kasidy: When will you be back? Sisko: It's hard to say. Time doesn't exist here. It could be a year. It could be yesterday. (definitely) But I will be back.
Another example of Brooks' influence:
The famous episode "Rejoined" which features the first kiss between members of the same gender on Star Trek was directed by Brooks. He refused to allow any still publicity shots be taken of "the kiss" because he didn't want the sensationalism of two women kissing to be exploited for publicity's sake. To sensationalize would have diminished the true meaning of the episode.
Ira Behr is quoted in the companion: "...we're not doing a show about lesbians, we're doing a show about Trills..." This was an important distinction to make, not to soften the blow of the scandal of two women kissing, but to make the point that in the 24th century, the issue and controversy of this episode is not that these are two *women*, but that these are two *people* who are faced with breaking a completely different taboo.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 17, 2002 1:06:53 GMT -5
^^^Thank you, Ana, for that long-awaited input from your reading of the DS9 Companion!
I was extremely impressed with the sited episodes and the craftsmanship of the acting, the re-writing of that final episode, and Avery Brooks' brilliant direction of that undeservedly controversial episode that not only did IMO the best job of showcasing Terry Farrell's acting ability, but addressed the Trill issue more effectively than the ep "Curzon" and that TNG ep where Dr. Crusher had an affair with a Trill ambassador. Top marks to everyone involved!
I strongly agree that Kira's "short haircut" was very appropriate and long overdue! The last thing that a freedom fighter has time for is high-maintenance hairdoes and I doubt that even in peacetime an aggressive female soldier would try to make up for lost time at a "beauty salon."
Thanks again, Ana, for the DS9Com input and if you want to use it as a reference for any of the other points raised in this thread and the next ones, please don't hesitate to do so!
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Post by Ana Ng on Mar 17, 2002 1:45:18 GMT -5
I strongly agree that Kira's "short haircut" was very appropriate and long overdue! The last thing that a freedom fighter has time for is high-maintenance hairdoes and I doubt that even in peacetime an aggressive female soldier would try to make up for lost time at a "beauty salon." Yes, I think so too. But it's also interesting to note that in the episode "Ties of Blood and Water", when Kira has flashbacks of losing her father during the Occupation, Resistance-era Kira has *really* long hair! Granted, it's a bit unkept, but I thought it was a strange costuming decision, all things considered. I mean, we learned in the TNG episode, "The Host", that even Dr. Crusher, who never fought in the Bajoran Resistance, finds the whole "beauty salon" phenomenon a bit on the frivolous side, only retreating to the care of Barber Mot when she's in oogy woogy love. We also learned in Mot's salon that Klingon hair is very luxurious
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 17, 2002 10:25:01 GMT -5
^^In defense of that DS9 ep as well as an earlier one where we get to see how Odo and Kira first met, I think that the motivation behind Kira having long hair was that it made her look "younger." The TV and film concept of "The Pony-tail Look in Flashback" for The Main Female Character goes back much earlier than "Peggy Sue Got Married." I admit that it worked for me in the Suspension of Disbelief Department, but I am a fairly old guy. Despite the conventional wisdom that this show, among others in the franchise, has an annoying habit of pandering to the specific demographic mentioned, I think that this was the only subliminal perspective that was being considered. Visual Shorthand, in other words.
Due to personal time constraints and a personal need to give the other posters space for "parting remarks" before a Part II Thread will be created, I'm going to leave this thread open a little while longer.
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