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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 4, 2002 8:56:06 GMT -5
I picked Saavik because she was the first image that popped up in my mind.. ;D
They didn't fear showing her to be beautiful. I know there are better examples, but at the time I was thinking of strong and beautiful and she just popped into my head.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 4, 2002 11:09:39 GMT -5
Point taken, UT. That's why I brought up the "conversation in the turbolift" scene. There have been several similar scenes in TOS and TNG that show female characters "letting their hair down" during their off-duty time. I remember a similar scene in "The Tholian Web" where Uhura was getting ready to go to bed and she sees an image of Kirk floating in space. We got to see Yeoman Rand in a similar situation in "Charlie X."
The point that I was making was that while we got to see them as beautiful women, they seldom got an opportunity to reveal their feminine side "on duty." Uhura and Rand were the exception and only because they had traditionally feminine roles.
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Post by Christina on Mar 5, 2002 15:16:15 GMT -5
Interesting point, Capt. Kozmo. What about it, ladies? Do you think that a woman in a predominately "boy's club" environment can't stand out unless she can prove that she's "one of the boys" or that women overall can hold their own and stand out if they're given a chance to do so and even when they're not? Hmm the trouble is, in a male environment the criteria for success are loaded for the males to succeed, and any non-male behaviour is viewed as not coming up to the mark. (Any woman daring to want to take a couple of years out to raise a child is not regarded as being fully career minded - and heaven help her if she dare phone in to say she won't be at work today because the child is ill!) So for a woman to stand out she just has to be as good as the men, think like them and respond to circumstances like them. Which is not the naturally female way, vive la difference. Even in C24, it's a man's world, methinks.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 6, 2002 3:37:00 GMT -5
^^^Even with mothers as Chief Medical Officers & Starship Captains and grandmothers as Starfleet Admirals in TNG???
Apparently, there were very few stories where these situations could be adequately described so it's very easy for us the viewers to come to that conclusion, Christina. Somehow, I tend to disagree with that notion since, in C24, they have families serving aboard Starships and Deep Space Stations. I suppose they could either request temporary leave or allow for the occasional relief from duty to "look in" on the ailing child.
This isn't to say that these things will happen given your current level of development as an international culture, but it's an attractive idea that stay-at-home moms and dads could have their cake and eat it too in space some day, isn't it?
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Post by captkozmo on Mar 8, 2002 23:18:10 GMT -5
What I am saying is simple. If there are 9 cast regulars, and 7 of them are male characters, the male characters out number the female characters. So if they do 9 different shows on an individual character, 7 of (resists temptation to make a silly pun) them are going to be about the males. Not saying the male eppys are better or anything, just that there will be more
Koz~`'-
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 9, 2002 2:59:11 GMT -5
So you're leaning towards the "law of averages" option. Very well.
If there were more female characters than male, do you believe that this would affect the way the stories would be told or would the males still stand out because some writers would feel that male characters are easier to write?
In most TV shows that I've seen where ladies dominate, they still have to interract with male characters more often than females. Either they have relationship issues, social issues, feminine/feminist issues, or the old reliable "How can women cope in a 'man's world'" debate with men being under-represented for once!
Again, I'd like to ask the ladies, can you think of a situation where women outnumbering men wouldn't lead to the kind of stories that I described in the previous paragraph that wouldn't appear forcibly unisex, in other words the writer was making a pain-staking effort not to turn it into a "battle of the sexes" storyline?
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Post by Christina on Mar 9, 2002 5:49:27 GMT -5
IMO, it'd have to be set in a convent, or an all-girls school...
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 9, 2002 9:21:32 GMT -5
Peter hums the song "How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria" from [/i]The Sound of Music with a mischevious look on his face.(No, I couldn't think of anything better to contribute. )
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Post by Christina on Mar 9, 2002 10:13:03 GMT -5
St Trinians was my image of an all girls school...... ;D
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 9, 2002 11:11:03 GMT -5
So are you saying that Janeway was dreaming of being Julie Andrews when she entered that holonovel as a "governess character?" Interesting............. Edit: Slightly off-topic, I'd recommend to both Christina and Peter that they hunt down the Original Bedazzled movie starring Peter Cook and Dudley Moore. There's a wonderful scene where the Moore character gets tricked by the "devilishly clever" Cook character to make a wish that transforms him into a nun!Being the comedy afficionatos that you both are, I'm sure you'll appreciate seeing that. I was just thinking about that while Peter was "being cute."
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Post by Christina on Mar 9, 2002 11:50:39 GMT -5
^^ I think I remember that one. The joke gets reused in other places as well, in various guises....
from Elric earlier in the topic.
well off topic. How else did that Darwin awards land in my inbox? In an office full (nearly) of career obsessed males, I'm regarded as one of the boys. Which is sometimes good, sometimes bad. I don't get talked down to, good. But they think that I share their attitudes and get annoyed when I don't, bad.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 9, 2002 18:02:30 GMT -5
^^^And if I were one of those men, as I have been in similar circumstances, and you pointed out that I possess those character flaws, which I do, I would be embarrassed.
Sometimes it's hard for me to distinguish between general identification and gender-specific POV limitations that I feel men and women have in abundance. That's why I'm eternally grateful for feedback from enlightened ladies like you, Christina. You keep me honest, or at least sincere in my admitted ignorance.
Now can you please elaborate on your comment about how a story set in a convent would avoid the gender issue, which pervades most stories and cause them to degenerate into "gender skirmishes?"
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Post by Christina on Mar 10, 2002 6:41:55 GMT -5
A bunch of elderly Carmelites, who have taken vows decades before. I hardly think that they are going to be too concerned about relationships with the opposite gender. (Unless their priest has got something he needs to confess to the bishop...) It would be just all girls together praying for the big sinful outside world with all it's natural disasters. Lousy TV in other words!
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 10, 2002 10:16:02 GMT -5
I shudder to think about what Elric's DOM mind is concocting with that storyline... ;D
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 10, 2002 11:08:28 GMT -5
^^^Wouldn't you like to know, Parson!
*Elric laughs like the spider in that classic Warner Bros. cartoon when he said," I love little flies! HEHEHEHEHEHE!"*
What Christine said pretty much sum up why even Mainstream TV don't have Nuns as the main characters storylines. Other than secular monopolization, it doesn't rake in the ratings. Whereas a VOY storyline where Harry Kim is surrounded by "Alien Playboy Playmates" will have every sex-starved slob including the bloke who's typing these words glued to the set!
It doesn't seem fair, does it?
I like how you prefaced it by including the possibility that there are several convents that aren't exclusively female. Like the Vatican doesn't trust women to administer themselves!
I wonder how "The Andorian Incident" would have been presented if Pjem was a convent instead of a monastery and why weren't the monks put off by T'Pol's presence there?
One of my fondest memories seeing "STIII: The Search for Spock" was seeing all of those Vulcan handmaidens in filmy robes! Part of me felt like I was at a buffet and part of me wanted to slap myself for feeling that way about "Vulcan nuns!"
I just felt like sharing that.
Edit: I just realized, Christina, that I once read that when old convents and cathedrals have been excavated and the foundations have been unearthed, the diggers have discovered the remains of very small human skeletons! I don't know if it's an "urban legend" or not, but if it isn't, that would explore your second hypothesis along with a line I remember from "The Lion in Winter" where King Henry II casually mentioned that he "knew" novices, meaning young novitiates that were on the verge of taking their official vow of celebacy. Not pretty thoughts to be sure, but valid nonetheless.
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