Are Male Trek Characters More "Developed?"

[Elric3960]

This was a topic that Ultimate Trekker proposed in the TNG Forum and I think that it's a long-overdue topic to discuss.

This is the kind of she said/he said dialogue exchange that can be educational as well as entertaining if handled with the proper respect and courtesy that this BBS is known for.

I feel that it's a valid point that the male characters had more depth and more opportunities to develop as characters than even the female regulars on all of the Treks.

The VOY writers had a golden opportunity to do with Janeway what was done with the male Captains as far as exploring her background, where she stands on crew interaction no matter how intimate (read: the aborted J/C storyline), and answering the question "What exactly was her relationship with 'Mark?'" was concerned.

At least they made an attempt to explore Torres, Seven and Kes's backgrounds but to a lesser degree than their male "counterparts," and in each case they were "daddy's girls."  Torres drove her father away, but most of us suspect which parent she could really relate to.

I can't wait to read some opinions and related episodes that address this topic.  Now that we have a strong "female presence" on this BBS, this is the time to appreciate what they have to say about another place where no man(or woman, there were female Trek writers as well) has gone before.

[UltimateTrekker]

I most wholeheartedly aggree.  The Trek women get very ignored in general.  DS9 did it the best, while Next Generation
did it the worse (I don't count TOS since they were barely ALLOWED to have women on board.)  Obviously ENT hasn't had a chance to prove itself.

[Elric3960]

TNG is another example of a golden opportunity to do what TOS wasn't allowed to do and they blew it!

Tasha started out as strong but ended up being non-descript genderwise until she was killed in "Skin of Evil."  They dropped the ball big time in "Yesterday's Enterprise" when she ran off to Enterprise C officially for a purposefull death but we know that she really did it "for love." *GAG!*

Deanna had some good supporting-role eps but when it came to the ones where she's the main focus, either Lwaxana dominated the story or it was another "a career woman can never find true love because her job defines her identity better than any man could" story.

Dr. Crusher had either "unrequited love" stories or "she saves the ship because the Captain is otherwise occupied" stories.  The only good ep that she had that I can recall involved the Whodonit where she risks her life to solve the mystery of the death of a Ferengi scientist who developed a special shielding that allows a ship to explore a star without superheating.  A shame that they didn't do more of them!

[UltimateTrekker]

Suspicians...  ;D (I admint, I knew this one but still double checked to be ABSOLUTELY sure... I give credit where credit is due)

[Ana Ng]

I think that the male characters were definitely more developed on TNG and TOS.  As far as screen time, if you include Seven, women were often on camera on Voyager.

DS9 had the best female characters, I think.  Kira is probably the most developed and powerful female character in Trek history.  Not only was she interesting and independant, but she could kick butt with the rest of them!  Best of all, she didn't have to sacrifice her femininity to be strong, she was a lady and a warrior.

[Christina]

I think it is not only a case of the Male characters being more developed (no double entendre intended) but the Non-Human characters, who happen also to be mainly male.

Spock
Data
Worf
Odo
Garak
Quark
Seven of Nine and eventually B'Elanna.

Okay, so as most of the script writers are male, they probably find it easier to write from a testosterone enhanced point of view. And let's face it, most of the characters are also male. But then, in truth, I'd expect most of the people in the space-faring arms of Star Fleet to be male. Voyager showed us the difficulties of being a woman out in a tincan surrounded by vacuum. Not the best place to go broody or try to raise a family. You need a high level of male-type personality traits to cope with that sort of life.

Many of the human male characters got as neglected as the female humans. DS9 managed to rectify this to some degree with Sisko - but only by making him half wormhole alien - and Julian - by making him 'enhanced'. In other words, not normal run of the mill human males at all.

Which I feel is a big shame.

Maybe with Enterprise being closer to 'now', we will see characters that we can relate to better and have them develop with back stories that bear some resemblence to life here on Earth. Role models for our next generation of space explorers?

[Elric3960]

My thanks to the ladies who contributed to this thread so far.

To Ana:  I find it interesting that it took at least two seasons for DS9 to explore Kira's "love life."  I seriously wondered what her views of men were since she showed hostility and guarded suspicion to most of them, including Sisko during the first season.  Odo was the only one that she was civil to and technically he's male only by emulation.  What's your take on that?

To Christina:  I was intrigued by your observation regarding women needing to exhibit male characteristics to function in Starfleet.  Self-determination vs. motherhood seems to be a continuing debate among women long before the "bra burning" days.  Would a "pioneer woman" be required to give up being a mother to survive in space or would it require too much of her time to raise a child and have a career as a Starfleet officer?  What about Captain LaForge, Geordi's mom?  It's a shame that they didn't explore that aspect of Geordi's family life to see how that would have worked.  We only got hints of it when he mentioned that he was bounced around from parent to parent as well as assignment to assignment as a kid.

I also said that some of the Trek writers were women as well.  What did you think of their stories since the men might have been suffering from "testosterone addiction?"

Brilliant observation regarding Sisko's being half-alien and Bashir being a "genetic superman" even though his condition was hinted at since the first season when he mentioned that he confused brain parts on his oral exam.

I'm anxious to hear from the other ladies at this BBS regarding this topic.  This is becoming an excellent thread and I'm honored to play a small part in it.

[UltimateTrekker]

Elric3960 said:

Brilliant observation regarding... Bashir being a "genetic superman" even though his condition was hinted at since the first season when he mentioned that he confused brain parts on his oral exam.

I believe he confused a pre-ganglionic nerve for a post-ganglionic membrane...  I'll research..

---

Ahhh... he mistook a pre-ganglionic fiber for a post-ganglionic nerve.  So I was a bit off, shoot me.  

[Ana Ng]

Elric3960 said:

To Ana:  I find it interesting that it took at least two seasons for DS9 to explore Kira's "love life."  I seriously wondered what her views of men were since she showed hostility and guarded suspicion to most of them, including Sisko during the first season.  Odo was the only one that she was civil to and technically he's male only by emulation.  What's your take on that?

Well, Kira was pretty guarded to everyone during the first season.  

I think her relationships with men were at least consistent.  She didn't dislike men, she was just picky.  Notice that all of the men she became involved with were men with a lot of power.  Bareil could have easily become Kai, Shakaar was the First Minister, and Odo was a *god* to some species in the galaxy!  But it was really more than just the power.  They were all men of power who didn't abuse it, but used their influence to help.  

What does it say that Kira always had attractions to men of power?  It could mean a lot of things, but I think one definite aspect of this is that Kira obviously had a good self-image to become involved with these men.  She didn't connect herself with them to make herself feel better, she did it because she felt worthy of being loved by anyone.

[Elric3960]

UltimateTrekker said:

...he mistook a pre-ganglionic fiber for a post-ganglionic nerve...

Exactly, UT. And I believe that an alien who launched a mental attack on him in a later first-season ep mentioned that the two brain parts didn't look anything alike, and Bashir's response indicated that he intentionally blew the orals because he didn't want to graduate first in his class!  This indicated that either he didn't want to deal with the pressure of being first, which contradicted with the impulsive personality that he exhibited throughout the series, or he was holding back some information about himself that made him different than most people.  His conversation with Garek in the epilog of that ep inplicated the latter IMO.  Now we know what that secret info is!

Excellent observations, Ana.  Perhaps "pickiness" was a factor in Kira choosing "the right man" and while I'll accept her guarded behaviour as being addressed toward Starfleet "occupation" rather than men in general, it was interesting that she got closer to Jadzia sooner than she did to O'Brien, for example.  Granted, it could have been the case of "working in different departments" and "How well do you know a mechanic when things are working properly?" but she did get to know Odo when there were no crimes being committed on the station.  Familiarity breeding common interests instead of contempt, perhaps?

Speaking of Jadzia, what's your take on the fact that the other female regular character was a humanoid with a "slug" inside of her that inhabited several people of both genders?  Do you think that it avoided the issue of gender by having this type of character being not-quite-female and very female at the same time or added an interesting twist to the subject of gender identification?

And am I the only one to notice that it took two seasons for DS9 to introduce female characters other than a semi-recurring married scientist who decided to become a "school marm," a pretty technician who turned out to become an assassin, a fanatical religious leader who could potentially be a villainess, and a few incidental "dabo girls?"

Was Cassidy Yates meant to be a "gender equalizer" in the non-traditional female character sense or "Sisko's Second Wife" all along?

Since Ana has the DS9 Companion in her possession, I'll let her explore these poignant questions.

I look forward to reading her responses.

[Christina]

Just to add to my original post -
I cannot believe I completely forgot about the Holodoctor in my list of well developed male non-humans!

Elric, it is now well established in medical circles that women and men have different attitudes and skills genetically programmed into them by virtue of their gender. More women are being considered and accepted for jobs as, say, fighter pilots because of their inbuilt ability to 'multitask' far more easily than men. But I believe that it is also a fact that, whilst groups and institutions may say 'we need more women (or other group) in this area or that' and try to arrange it to be so, it will only happen if women WANT to do those jobs.

Back to the topic. It is simpler to write a single-minded character, someone concentrating on one thing at a time. And it is still easier to picture a Man doing an awful lot of the tasks associated with space travel. So you get male characters.
When they said the next series Captain would be a woman - remember the response? The astonishment, the whoops from the 'equality' brigade. And the criticism and negative attitude of a lot of 'fans' because she did occasionally behave like a woman.

[UltimateTrekker]

My complait about Janeways is that she WASN'T a woman.

They tried to hide that fact.  Mulgrew was also angry about that.  The other point is her voice... it's quite Mannish.

Like it's, "A Female captian!  But don't worry... she's not TOO female"  If they'd made her a lesbian that'd been even worse.

I wish they could have had a female officer like Saavik.  Smart, intelligent, AND very much a woman.  

[Elric3960]

I strongly agree with what UT said regarding Janeway being “not allowed to be female.”  The only feminine traits that she ever exhibited were maternal when “her ship and crew were in danger.”  When she encountered the Vidians, she sounded like a she-bear ready to rip the face off of anyone who even thought of harming her cubs!  Unfortunately, even that was toned down or forgotten during most of the series until Seven of Nine “joined the crew.”  Then we had strong-willed mother vs. strong-willed daughter subplots when she wasn’t worrying about where Seven’s loyalties lie, which was at least realistic.  As I’ve said in another post, a wise man once said,”The price you pay for getting what you want is getting what you once wanted.”  In this case, strong female characters that aren’t very feminine.

I disagree with his assessment of Saavik as being very feminine, at least the Kirstie Alley Saavik.  Other than showing us DOM’s how hot she looks with her hair down and crying when Peter Preston and Spock died, what feminine traits did she really exhibit?  While the Robin Curtis Saavik didn’t cry when David Marcus died, she showed courage, compassion and bittersweet humour when she “offered herself” to an adolescent Spock and restrained but well-placed anger when she found out that Protomatter was used in the Genesis missile. It’s debatable whether the writers acknowledged that Saavik was half Vulcan/half Romulan.  TWOK Saavik was very emotional even when she was restrained, TSFS Saavik was as restrained as TOS Spock but was subtle with her emotions.

If I weren’t an enlightened DOM, Christina, I would have interpreted your summation of how the writers write male characters as male bashing.  While it’s interesting that modern scientists recently discovered what I knew all along, that doesn’t mean that the writers, male and female, would be up on these things.  I once read what Ms. Snodgrass had to say about how TPTB rewrote “Ensigns of Command.”  In a word, she was furious!  She didn’t go into details as to what was changed, but I can take a guess: they probably weakened the main female character and made her too “Mary Sue-ish” for the writer’s liking.  Perhaps it’s not so much that male leads who multitask are easier to write so much as they are the only heroes that the Suits will accept.  I don’t know if Chauvinistic Attitudes diminish when women are in charge or not, but I doubt that women would respect a weaker male character that was created in the name of Gender Equality.  Name one male lead that would prove me wrong.

[captkozmo]

I don't think that the male characters were more developed. I think that there were more male characters than female characters. This being the case there were more shows about the male characters.

Koz~`'-

[Elric3960]

Interesting point, Capt. Kozmo.

Are you saying that "there's more to choose from with the males than the females, so naturally the shows will be more male-focused" or are you saying that "the females get lost in the story because the males outnumber them?"

I would like to debate both points of view but I'm waiting for you to clarify yours.

What about it, ladies?  Do you think that a woman in a predominately "boy's club" environment can't stand out unless she can prove that she's "one of the boys" or that women overall can hold their own and stand out if they're given a chance to do so and even when they're not? For the record, I'm of the second opinion and tend to be embarrassed when I accidentally consider any lady as "one of the boys" just because she's not in-your-face feminine.