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Post by Christina on Mar 10, 2002 11:14:31 GMT -5
Wanderin even further off topic
The Gilbertine (I think) order was made up of men and women, who lived in separate cloisters but shared the church. Naturally this lead to Middle-ages scandal-mongering and unbased rumours, especially as all the actual work in the place was done by lay-men (and women) and the religious just prayed and meditated. As women aren't considered able to consecrate the Host at Holy Communion, or hear Confession, they have to come into contact with a priest or two from time to time.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 10, 2002 11:28:00 GMT -5
^^^That could explain the hideous discoveries made by archaeologist and excavators that I sited in my earlier edited post.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 10, 2002 12:51:53 GMT -5
You guys are making me feel like I need to take a shower, or at least wash my hands for a good three or four hours. You know, what about The Flying Nun...that was a fairly popular show, I believe...?
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 10, 2002 19:23:32 GMT -5
^^^"The Trouble with Angels" and "Where Angels Go, Trouble Follows" were popular films at that time, even when they left the theatres, Sally Field was still popular after the TV adaptation of Gidget was cancelled, there were very few regular nuns featured on that show, Alejandro Rey as the "local playboy" was a more popular foil for Sister Bertrille, and most of the stories involved her run-ins with the Reverend Mother, who gradually "lightened up" as the series progressed.
Ask anyone who's under the age of 35 if they've ever even heard of this charming sitcom and I wouldn't be surprised if you get either a blank stare or a "The Flying what?" reaction from them.
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Post by Aurian on Mar 10, 2002 19:42:06 GMT -5
Jupp.. never heard of the flying nuns. And I am 26...
But another nun-movie all girls.. "Agnes of God" with Jane Fonda and Meg Tilly. And icky stories about sceletons in the tunnels there too..
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 10, 2002 19:53:23 GMT -5
^^^Thank you, my dear, for posting on this thread and verifying two of the points that I raised here!
What are your viewpoints regarding the main topic: are the shows male-dominated because males outnumber females in Trek or is it a male-oriented show regardless of the male/female ratio?
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Post by Aurian on Mar 10, 2002 20:05:44 GMT -5
^ it is too late for me to say something clever about the main topic. But here goes. Yes, the men got more deapth to their characters, except Seven, Kira and ... well those two. And it is maledominated regardless of the numbers. It is in the nature of the show because Star Trek is or atleast was more oriented towards a male audience. But if you want my real opinion. I think many got gypped when it came to deapth in their characters. Male aswell as females. DS9 came closest to having real character portrayals. Did not hurt the shows much anyway
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 10, 2002 20:55:48 GMT -5
^^Other than your inaccurate assessment about being too tardy to write anything clever, you've made some very valid points, my dear. How can you be late to an ongoing party with an open invitation, especially to intelligent ladies?
I personally felt that Kira got to grow more when her "love life" became an integral part of the series. Both of the Daxes and Cassidy Yates could be given the same verdict if the first two weren't the hosts of a symbiont that got to experience both genders and the latter didn't have a function outside of Starfleet.
What do you think of the lack of regular feminine characters in this series especially, since it's set in a remote space station rather than a regimented starship? Did the lack of "conventional military formalities" open the story possiblities for this Trek as opposed to the others? If so, do you think that those were properly explored?
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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 11, 2002 8:36:01 GMT -5
I think another issue is the character the females were given did not make for good character story lines (at least in TNG)
I mean really, they DID push Troi now and again, but the character didn't have too far to go. (Hence the complete lack of couselors until Ezri, who was HARDLY a counselor.)
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 11, 2002 11:28:31 GMT -5
^^^If you mean the absence of Counselors as regular characters in other Treks, I strongly agree UT. If you mean the absence of counselors in Starfleet, that's open to debate.
I'll avoid the obvious "There were other starships out there besides Enterprise D and E" argument. Instead, I'll address the possible reasons why DS9 and VOY didn't have one as regulars until Ezri.
The original purpose of the DS9 project was to help the Bajorans pick up the pieces after the Cardassian Occupation and gradually admit them into the Federation. Since the Bajorans are a spiritual people, they would probably resent the idea of someone "not of their faith" counselling them in personal and family matters. Besides, there was the danger that the Cardassians would be back to reclaim Bajor, so the assignment of a counselor to a potential warzone could be viewed as superfluous.
Voyager's original mission was to capture the Maquis that were hiding in The Badlands. They didn't plan to be away from the Alpha Quadrant for over 7 years. Perhaps a counselor would have been assigned to them after this mission was over, perhaps not. The crew complement of a Naval Destroyer is different than one for an Aircraft Carrier. Different missions require different needs.
I believe that it was mentioned in a TNG episode where Data was given a temporary command during the brief Klingon Civil War that different species are better suited for different tasks. This was brought up by a bitter Lt. Commander who was understandably ticked off that Data got the assignment instead of him, but his "You wouldn't assign a Klingon to be a ship's counselor" brought the point home that this wasn't a "novelty assignment" confined to the Enterprise.
You brought up an excellent point nonetheless, UT. Did the disappearance of Tasha Yar and the lack of a female replacement for her create the impression that commanding officers like Picard were making an unconscious decision to only assign women to "nurturing" positions and leaving the "dangerous" assignments to men? Torres has a traditionally male position but she's subordinated by men. Kira is an executive officer but that could have been a political decision on Bajor's part. The lady techies are a reinforcement of the fact that if science and technology aren't gender-neutral fields, they should be!
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Post by Dohlman on Mar 12, 2002 12:22:25 GMT -5
I think that male Star Trek characters are more developed due to the demographics of the target audience: young males aged somewhere between 15-22. It is primarily written by males for males, IMHO.
One of the executive producers of DS9 was a divorced mother of 2 (I forgot her name), but I believe that contributed to the existence of strong women on the show, such as Dax and Kira.
I agree with Christina regarding the fact that a predominantly male environment creates the expectation that in order to succeed, one has to affect the characteristics of the majority. I have worked ina predominantly male corporate environment and felt pressure to conform. I blended to a certain extent, but remained my own person. I currently work in a predominantly female environment, and although there is some pressure to conform to corporate norms, it is much less pronounced. My boss is a mother of 2 who works part-time, so whenever I need to take time off for my children, it's never a problem or an issue.
However, I believe such a scenario would not exist in a military environment, where one is expected to be 'on duty' at certain times. One cannot 'work from home' during a hostile alien attack.
Personally, not only would I like more women to be developed as characters, especially Black women, but also families. One of my fav eps of TNG (which is rare) is when Data, Lor, and their creator (forgot his name) are gathered at the creator's house and Data and Lor begin arguing over things that happened years before. I would LOVED to have seen Sisko in bed with the flu while a 3-year-old son/daughter poured cereal all over the living room floor and stuck jelly on the dog, while an immiment attack by Cardassians loomed on the horizon.
I think a storyline is going to have relationship/social issues no matter who the predominate gender is. That's the stuff of life. However, where I work, (female majority), we have work issues, client issues, business acquisition issues, that we have to deal with without there being a question of who's male or who's female. It's a matter of who can do the job. If the writers have sufficient experience, they could write such a scenario.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 13, 2002 1:58:49 GMT -5
I think that male Star Trek characters are more developed due to the demographics of the target audience: young males aged somewhere between 15-22. It is primarily written by males for males, IMHO. Point taken, my dear. But what about the ladies who wrote eps for the show? Do you think that they were under pressure to write in the same style as the men who wrote Trek stories or were they limited to writing for "the favorites" because they had more interesting story possibilities due to their assigned duties, as UT astutely pointed out? Welcome to the thread BTW!I think you mean Jeri Taylor. UT and Ana would probably be able to answer that question better than I can(Ana has the DS9 Companion in her enviable possession)However, one can work in a moving home and take the family with you in C24 Trek, as I said earlier. What's your take on that, especially considering Geordi's mom was a Starship Captain and a mom!I repeat, Captains LaForge and Cassidy Yates. What do you think of her and Sisko's on again/off again courtship, her temporary incarceration, then her marrying him, only to lose him, and ending up pining for him in the hopes that he's not dead?Dr. Noonian Soong"Brothers."However, in most SF & action shows, the male characters don't often obsess with them to the exclusion of all else. I would debate with you about it not being more of the case with female-centered shows. The common school of wisdom that states "A woman has to work twice as hard as a man in order to get half of the respect" is 100% true but in excellent shows like "Cagney and Lacey" it tended to be drilled into the viewers' heads every week! That's probably why it was cancelled three times! I could picture some beer-guzzling slob shouting at the set "If I wanted to be preached to, I'll go to church!" (No offense, Peter) While I don't agree with that sentiment by any means, I could understand it.The combative side of me would say "Then why haven't they?" I've already cited a VOY ep where Harry was being used as "breeding stock" by a planet dominated by beautiful women and a Data-centered ep("Ensigns of Command") that was written by a talented lady named Melinda Snodgrass and TPTB managed to butcher it into an Alan Ladd-meets-Mary Sue syrup-fest! Maybe ENT will have better luck.
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 13, 2002 11:23:58 GMT -5
I agree with Dohlman. The lack of character development in women has everything to do with demographics. You can talk all day about Roddenberry’s vision, but in the end, it comes down to Paramount's profits. Paramount (aka B&B) says what stories get made into episodes and which don’t. Face it, in the real world most men between 15 and 22 aren’t interested in what kind of childhood Seven of Nine had. They want to see her high-kicking “The Rock” and seducing Chakotay on the holodeck. At the same time, young men are looking for strong male role models. (I fit this demographic when TNG was on.) Again, I couldn’t care less about how Dr. Crusher managed to raise Wesley on a starship. I was interested in Captain Picard’s background and how he viewed the world because I wanted to be just like him. The female characters that were mentioned as well developed had what we traditionally think of as male characteristic. Janeway was a strong leader, Kira was often hostile and impulsive and Dax, who used to be a man, could be down right androgynous. Elric, you made several references to Geordi’s mom. Keep in mind that we never once saw the "real" her on screen. We don’t know her personality nor do we don’t know what kind of mom she actually was. For all we know, Captain LaForge did not serve on a starship until after Geordi and his sister were adults and out of the house. At the same time, Cassidy Yates was only a secondary character. Aside from knowing that her brother played baseball and a few of her opinions, we never learn much about her. How did she become a freighter captain? Where did she grow up? How did she get to become a Maquis sympathizer? We’ll never know. This is a good topic. Really got me thinking.
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 13, 2002 13:05:26 GMT -5
...The lack of character development in women has everything to do with demographics. You can talk all day about Roddenberry’s vision, but in the end, it comes down to Paramount's profits. Paramount (aka B&B) says what stories get made into episodes and which don’t. Face it, in the real world most men between 15 and 22 aren’t interested in what kind of childhood Seven of Nine had. They want to see her high-kicking “The Rock” and seducing Chakotay on the holodeck. At the same time, young men are looking for strong male role models. (I fit this demographic when TNG was on.) Again, I couldn’t care less about how Dr. Crusher managed to raise Wesley on a starship. I was interested in Captain Picard’s background and how he viewed the world because I wanted to be just like him. I thank you for joining us as well, Mentat Tir. I also appreciate your honesty regarding your personal take on how Paramount continues to pander to a specific demographic and how your fitting into it at one time made you a fan. I can echo the same sentiments since TOS was on during my formative years and did very little to go beyond that demographic or exploring the background of the ladies on that show. Spock was my role model BTW.UT and I addressed the "Janeway problem" earlier and I said that most of the ladies in C24 Trek were "daddy's girls" and the Daxes, through the symbiont, literally had it both ways. We seem to be on the same page on that topic.If you saw the TNG ep where a little girl's "imaginary friend" took physical form thanks to an alien life force, you would have known that Geordi told the girl's father that he was on several assignments with his mother when he wasn't on a deep space station or planetside with his dad. My very point was that they were mentioned in passing and the fact that you didn't notice it only proves my point regarding "missed opportunities" on the writer's part. If they can tell the story of Picard's Mechanical Heart, would it have hurt them to tell a flashback story about Geordi's childhood to tie in with his mother's disappearance? Thanks for proving my point. Cassidy wasn't in Starfleet but she was deeply involved with The Main Character. That could have been justification for several stories to be written about her if TPTB were interested in breaking conventional story patterns as they have in other areas in this series. If they could have the gall to tell the story about a starship being manned by exceptional cadets who were in over their heads, something that should have been a NO-NO if they were truly pandering to the 15-22 demographic, why couldn't they have gone the extra distance and not soften(read: feminize) Mrs Sisko #2?That's the nicest thing that anyone could ever say to me. "You made me think!" Thank you!
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 13, 2002 13:26:05 GMT -5
If they could have the gall to tell the story about a starship being manned by exceptional cadets who were in over their heads, something that should have been a NO-NO if they were truly pandering to the 15-22 demographic, why couldn't they have gone the extra distance and not soften(read: feminize) Mrs Sisko #2? You lost me. Are you talking about the DS9 episode called "Valiant?" That was taken from Nog's and Jakes' points of view. "Chief" Dorian Collins was a central character, but I certainly wouldn't say the episode wasn't from her point of view.
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