EvilTree
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Royal Highland Fusilier
Posts: 47
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 21, 2002 17:45:51 GMT -5
I will not argue with you Yohan, but you really should respect others views too. I am sure your god does not need you to look down on the other gods.. they might not even be real.. Now I know that we live in a world where Christianity is an OLD and common religion. I know that it is the ONLY really big religion in my country. But age does not make a religion any more valid, nor does political support, numbers of followers, or material holdings of it's temple. I don't recall saying I don't respect the beliefs of others... Everyone has their own values and beliefs. I may not like them, and as long as they don't annoy me with it, it's all good.
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Post by Ana Ng on Mar 21, 2002 19:49:05 GMT -5
Oh dear.. well.. I'm pretty much with UT.. I don't enjoy debating faith. Because I've done it until I was blue in the face when I lived in Lynchburg, and it seemed to be everyone's favorite topic of conversation at work, since we worked 12 hour shifts and the work was assembly, we had plenty of time to talk about anything and everything. And as soon as everyone found out I was a "heathen", they ALWAYS wanted to get into it.
I take great offense to Mentat's classifying agnostics as "lazy". I don't care what kind of faith people have, or if they have it or not. What does bother me is the prevailing arrogance among some people of faith that non-believers are to be pitied or looked down upon. I am not lazy, I've been working since I was 15 years old, and since I haven't been living at home, I've worked an average of 60 hours a week to support myself, even if the jobs I had were exhausting, mind-numbing jobs far below my intellectual potential. Everything I have, I've earned for myself, and until I was 21 years old, I didn't have a car, so the work I spent most of my life at for the last five years was a place I had to walk. I've attended a variety of religious ceremonies, explored different kinds of faith, and haven't found one that is plausible to me. To classify a group of people as "lazy" because they don't have the need or inclination toward spirituality is akin to saying that all Muslims are terrorists, or that all Christians are psychopaths like Timothy McVeigh. It's an unfair and prejudiced generalization.
Besides, even if an agnostic hasn't explored his or her spirituality, who has the right to say that is a bad thing? Every single person is different, and they have different needs and desires. Because the exploration of faith might be the most important thing to one person doesn't mean it's the most important thing to another. I say, live and let live.
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Post by Aurian on Mar 22, 2002 6:46:43 GMT -5
I don't recall saying I don't respect the beliefs of others... Everyone has their own values and beliefs. I may not like them, and as long as they don't annoy me with it, it's all good. Im sorry, I just ment that you should not press that your god is better than anyone elses. All of us are equals and all of our beliefs should be treated as valid and equal. I know that does not happen off the board, but on the board that should be the reasoning. Sorry that I came down hard on you Yohan, I guess this is the reason I dont like religious debates. I read too much into the small things. I apologise..
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Santaman
NCC 1701-A
Space Pirate
Posts: 217
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Post by Santaman on Mar 22, 2002 7:20:14 GMT -5
1: Gimme back my frying pan ;D
Okay then my two cents, i believe that there is something immeasurably powerfull surrounding us if that is god i don't know, i simply know that there is more then us.
I don't think that any religion is capable of describing that power, they are all human made, the way humans see it, no religion has a right to claim they are the one that is the right one, every human is different so is every humans way of believing in god or whatever we call him/her.
the only thing that is important is that you feel comfortable and strengthened by your believe, the way that you believe is not important, thats a thing between you and god.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 22, 2002 7:54:47 GMT -5
Hmm... I want to debate all you non believers. *Looks for Mentat, Dohlman, Dj & Peter to help* Note the fact that I'm not helping. These kinds of "debates" are rarely fruitful in any real sense and usually end up hurting someone's feelings. In 19 years of Christian experience, I've found that it's almost impossible to "debate" and "tell the truth in love" in the same conversation. Anyway, does anyone remember what the original theme of this thread was? I think Mentat wanted to discuss Bishop Tutu's statement that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same God. Here's my thoughts on that, from a Christian perspective... To address it properly, the question has to be separated into two parts. First, do Christians and Muslims worship the same God? My perspective (and, incidentally, the position of historical, orthodox Christianity) is no. Although Islam as a system of faith is derived from both Judaism and Christianity (and no Muslim argues this), the God that is described in the Koran has character traits that are so different from those described in both the Old and New Testaments that Allah must be mutally exclusive of the God the Christians and Jews worship. Islam's explanation of that is that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures were corrupted (either intentionally or unintentionally) in transmission; this is why God sent Gabriel to Mohammad in the first place -- to dictate His words so that we'd finally get it right. If I were trying to convince you that the Islam's God is so different from the Judeo-Christian picture of Him as to be mutually exclusive, I'd offer some examples. Since I'm not, I'll leave it at that. If you want to be convinced, do your own research. (I'm like you, UT...I have a problem with people who believe things that they've never invested the time or the energy to verify themselves.) So then, the second question: Do Jews and Christians worship the same God. My perspective here is yes. The Jewish Scriptures are universally accepted among Christians as divinely inspired revelation (although the reverse is certainly not true), and no (orthodox) Christian would question the veracity of God's self-revelation in those writings. However, because of its rejection of Christ, "the image of the invisible God," and its subsequent rejection of the New Testament, Judaism paints an incomplete picture of God. So, from my perspective, Jews worship that which they only partially know; they've ignored the most important part of His self-revelation. Unfortunately, that willful ignorance makes their worship unacceptable to Him. (Note: When I use the term "orthodox" above, I don't mean "Orthodox." Look it up if you're confused. ;D )
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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 22, 2002 8:05:51 GMT -5
Hey... Agnostic does NOT = Lazy. Granted, there may be some who fit that description, but the agnostics I know would define themselves as people who are open to "Truth" Look at the worlds religions... they preach most of the same stuff. Many have a single god and most have human beings as messangers of god. The agnostic is someone who says, "God is real. He is, but no one has gotten it right yet. If they have, it's been lost in 2000 years or papal greed for money and power, translations through dozens of languages, transcribed by hand and filled with mistakes." I don't feel that looking into thos religions is necessarily useful, since as simple humans, if god ever DID send his word down, we've most likely screwed it up by now, so why follow a belief system that's wrong? It's better to try to live up to the morals that you have instead of ones that may or may not be correct. (I feel I keep having to make notes here.. is that a BAD thing?) This does not mean I think all religions are bogus. Again, I'll state that ANYTHING is possible. (What was it that had a character come back from death and tell us the Mormans were right all along? ) I don't think as humans we can truly understand or accept whatever the truth actually is. In my eyes, IF there is a god, a person has 2 choices, either look for the religion you think hits the closest, or look inward at yourself and try to follow whatever moral values you have, however they got there. That's what I do. I know that I am a good person. I may do things that are against what the bible says, but I don't feel that I do anything to hurt others. I take care of my family and try to take care of myself. If there is a god, and I'm judged in the afterlife, either I'll be looked at as a good person who did what I could or evil for not following the bible. I feel that if god really is as depicted in the bible... (from MY POV) a blood thirsty monster demanding praise and obidience... I don't wanna be in his heaven anyway. I have free will and will live my life as a GOOD person. If I'm d**ned for not praising the all powerful being, then I (and the other 75% of the non-christian world) are going to hell and so be it. (That came off as a bit strong, mostly a response to my Grandmother and step-son's father who claim that we're going to hell for not babtising my sons and listening to Marilyn Manson respectivly) I assume that Peter would agree that Christianity is NOT about what is above and that the god HE believes in is NOT that monster that has been depicted to me by 1 too many people. Again (disclaiming disclaiming disclaiming ) I don't see anyone like that hear, but it's part of who I am and why I believe what I do, and you guys asked for it (why I believe what I do, that is... no one asked for an ass reaming freak babbling to him ) And BTW, religion does NOT = morals. Lisa and I were hit on that during placement interviews for Josh, saying that without going to chruch he can't get values. I didn't go to church, but I also didn't father and then abandon a child in HS like his dad who is a "Good Christian". You are who you are, not what your religion is. (Looking down.. remembering that scene in Vertigo... thanking "god" that there are no more soap boxes available because this thing is swaying like a sapling in a tornado)
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 22, 2002 9:50:58 GMT -5
I take great offense to Mentat's classifying agnostics as "lazy". Whoa! Hold on a sec. Please re-read what I said... I apologize. I did not mean to imply that all agnostics are lazy. There was a time in my life that I considered myself agnostic even though I grew up in the church. I, like you Ana, spent time searching. I spend Saturday afternoons in the library researching religions, prayed, and talked to several pastors, a priest and a rabbis. You might call it my own spiritual quest. I'm talking about people who say that there may or may not be a pot of gold at the other end of the rainbow, but can't be bothered to look. Yes, it is their decision to make and they have a right to make it. I just don't think it's a very good one considering what may be at stake. You're absolutely correct, Ana. There are people who classify themselves as a group who really are not. All Muslims are not al-Qaeda, not all Christians are KKK members and not all agnostics are "lazy."
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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 22, 2002 10:55:30 GMT -5
Yes Mentat, you were correct... you said you met PEOPLE who said they were agnostic but you felt THOSE peeps were lazy, not agnostics.. apology to you. Of course, I'm sick of debating religion, but find it MOST usefuly to myself and to others. By FORCING us to EXPLAIN our beliefs it makes us question them again and asks us WHY we believe. If someone has no reason other than, "Mom and Dad are Baptists too" they need to do some searching and questioning for themselves. I have a few friends who got married in a church for the sake of it, but NEVER attend church? They bow their heads at Chirstmas with grandma, but don't really pray (I did that for years until Lisa and I grew up and said, "No more will I pretend... If grandma has an issue with that, so be it!") It upsets me that some people will bow to the societies view and need of a religious wedding (by society it's usually family but friends and neighbors also have a say). It's peer pressure. My dad believes in a higher power. Why? After getting busted for drugs and sent to rehab he quit using alcohol and narcotics cold turkey after 1 try in 1 month of rehad.... that's it. How many stories to you hear about people going in and out 17 times and STILL not quiting. His only explanation is his belief in a higher power. My explanation is partially he BELIEF in a higher power. But, that besides the point. He doesn't go to church at all, and doesn't really claim to be a real Christian. He knows what he believes and follows that. He doesn't hang crosses in the house, because that's not his thing. I know people that would hang one up because it was a christmas present and they didn't want mom to feel bad. That's crazy. Do or do not (as some crazy muppet might say). That said, I HIGHLY respect EVERYONG involved in this convo for expressing their beliefs and reasons for those. You are the antithisis of all that I despise about organiszed religion: Mindless sheep (<- ever notice that we call peaple who blindly follow something sheep and we call Jesus a shepherd? Just some athiest humor there ) I think I'm about all used up!
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EvilTree
NX-01
Royal Highland Fusilier
Posts: 47
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 22, 2002 15:07:19 GMT -5
Failure to notice the smileys means you miss the humourous intent of my remarks. I think I got in less trouble when I didn't use smileys.
The trouble also is, I have to believe that my God is better than others, because what stupid idiotic schmuck would settle for the second best. Other gods, if any exists, might work for others and they might think their god is the as good as anyone elses, but I'm not willing to settle for the second best.
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 22, 2002 16:18:47 GMT -5
Someone once said all religion have two things in common. One, a belief in a higher power. Two, that theirs is the correct one. ;D
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 23, 2002 1:52:45 GMT -5
Failure to notice the smileys means you miss the humourous intent of my remarks. I think I got in less trouble when I didn't use smileys. Don't blame Aurian for your failure to communicate your message, ET. As I tried to tell you in your abortive introductory thread ("I have come to terrorize," now playing nightly in the Rubbish Bin), sarcasm never carries well in print. "Smileys" are only of marginal assistance in carrying the message. It's best to use the word "Kidding!" or something like it to avoid all confusion. In fact, here's a quote from my response to your introduction. Does any of this sound familiar? Why try to apply some logical reasoning to what was obviously an attempt to raise someone's ire? Every intelligent poster on this board would have assumed that you believe your god is better even if you had not said so. It seems obvious that you included that statement at the end of two posts in an attempt (and a successful one at that) to "yank someone's chain." Why not have a little integrity, admit that's what you were doing, apologize, and let's get on with life.
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EvilTree
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Royal Highland Fusilier
Posts: 47
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 24, 2002 23:38:11 GMT -5
The first two 'my God is better than yours' were in humourous tone, as stated before. The last thing explaining my position was when I got ticked/unhappy off.
I have failed to see why people here can't see my attempt at humour. I have successfullly done so (on most occassions), on other boards I post at. They may have not been funny, but at least they figured out I was joking.
Lighten up. I'm not the type of person to heckle someone without reason, unless I was unhappy off.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 25, 2002 3:15:09 GMT -5
I was beginning to think you ran away again. You're not "unhappy off" at me, are you, ET? I hesitate to point out, as it will be the third time, that there is no such thing as "tone" in writing, and BBS's are a written medium. (If that's confusing, think of it this way: anytime you try to communicate with your fingers, if you're not doing sign language, it's a written medium.) Anyway, "tone" is a characteristic of spoken language, not written language. It is impossible to communicate tone through written media. Anytime in the past that you have seemed to be successful at doing this has been the result of good guesses on the part of those reading your posts. Perhaps now that we all know that you often intend to offend people with your humor, we'll be able to guess what tone you're trying to communicate with greater accuracy.
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EvilTree
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Royal Highland Fusilier
Posts: 47
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 25, 2002 3:29:10 GMT -5
It is difficult, but not impossible, to intended 'tone' across a media. Looking at the words, and the situation, plus stuff like smileys, helps the audience or the receipient to understand the tone, or the mood in which a sentence is written. Example: 1. I am quite displeased by what you have said to me Monday during class, sir. 2. Hey, I didn't like what you said to me on Monday. The first sentence has a 'tone' of a more formal writing, for someone in superior position, etc. The second one is more jovial, friend to friend tone. Get what I'm saying? So, "And yes, my God is still better than yours, because I, EvilTree said so." would be more like... joking, none serious tone, because I'd be making a jest by being a bit pompous arse-smiley way. Let us hope that further miscommunications like this are prevented, and that this bitter taste in my mouth goes away.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Mar 25, 2002 3:44:01 GMT -5
It is difficult, but not impossible, to intended 'tone' across a media... Technically, "tone" is "the pitch of a word used to determine its meaning or to distinguish differences in meaning," or "the particular or relative pitch of a word, phrase, or sentence." If you can do this with a keyboard, ET, I'll be very, very impressed with you. The fact of the matter is that it offended someone, and you still haven't apologized that I'm aware of. If you failed to communicate your intended meaning through a post, and as a result someone was offended, the bottom line is that you failed, not the person doing the reading. Mauture people take responsibility for their failures, rather than trying to push the blame off on someone else. The only one who can prevent miscommunication is the communicator. The reader is at his or her mercy. I too hope that you can prevent further miscommunications like this, ET. As far as the bitter taste is concerned, if it's from the fact that Spacedock has a higher standard of friendliness and courtesy/consideration for the feelings of others...I'd start popping breath mints if I were you. I doubt we're going to change.
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