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Post by =^=First Contact=^= on Mar 21, 2002 10:41:31 GMT -5
I am a Christian and proud of it, (although my internet personality may not show that.) Lutheran, LCMS.
There is a God. Prove there isn't one.
Obviously, that is something our little human minds can't understand. Even if it dosn't make sense to you, it's better to be safe than sorry. Now, UT, do you believe in evolution, or do you just believe in nothing?
I have, and this defintly makes more sence then anything else. How much have you looked into everything? Now, if you want to have an Evolution vs. Creation debate, let's do that in a different thread.
Can you explain in more detail?
Hmm... I want to debate all you non believers.
*Looks for Mentat, Dohlman, Dj & Peter to help*
BTW, what are you're guys general beliefs?
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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 21, 2002 12:28:54 GMT -5
I consider myself an open person. I try NOT to claim that god is an imposability. I DON'T believe that. I have, what I believe to be more likely scenearios, but I don't lie to myself and say that I'm right.
I realize that I don't know the truth. I can't know the truth. And no matter how HARD you try to believe or DO believe.. just believing in god, doesn't make it real.
So, I stand open... I have biases toward a godless universe because I see no reason to think that there is some higher power that has control over everything. That's just MY perspective and unless I SEE something that changes that, it won't change.
One issue I have is with people who can't admit the POSSIBILITY that there is no god. Really. Some may have experiences that make them feel they have proof, or maybe they DO, but I don't think the vast majority can say that they KNOW 100% that god exists. I can say my hand is connected to my wrist because I can see it. I can BELEIVE that dogs talk to each other or that they don't, but the truth is that I don't know, and to claim I do is stupid, because I'd be lying to myself.
MY believe is that I am here, and so are you. I admit that the idea of us evolving into the complex beasts we are is fantastically crazy, but IMO the believe that some all power existance created us out of thin air is crazier.
Also.. I feel that there are so MANY possibilties of the truth of existance that we most likely haven't or couldn't concive of 9% of those, and so by playing the odds, we're likely ALL incorrect. In a way, I like it like that. Whithout questions, what would we talk about, or think about. If I KNEW there was a god and I would die and go to heaven if I was good, what would be the point of living... and then again, if I KNEW that we were going to die and that would be it, again, what is the point in living?
Thruth be told... I HOPE there is a god. I honestly do.. It's much more comforting. However.. I HOPE my raise is going to be 15K a year. I could buy a house for my family, and get all the Trek DVD's I wanted... however, I don't EXPECT that, TELL people that it is true, and I'm pretty sure it WON'T be.
But you never know... (That is the human condition as Sisko would say to the prophets.)
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Post by Elric3960 on Mar 21, 2002 13:05:18 GMT -5
My youngest sister once asked me about my image of God and this is what I said, more or less:
There were three blind men who were given an object to touch and identify.
One of them said, "It's a tree trunk."
Another one of them said, "It's a boulder."
The third one said, "It's a snake."
As those of you who are familiar with the story would gather, it was an elephant.
I don't believe that we as human beings are capable of seeing The Big Picture of Creation or The Creative Force Behind It, but my search for my faith can best be described as "looking for the elephant" and I believe that I'm closer to my goal than I was when I was a child, but I have a long way to go.
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Post by Aurian on Mar 21, 2002 13:09:53 GMT -5
Yes dear I could. But my experience with 'debates' has not been good. I tend to agree, even though I dont,and walk away feeling very hypocritical. I do this since I lack the power to put my belives down on paper. I just feel it in my heart. Wicca is very personal belifsystem and varies greatly between individuals. But here goes... I still belive that the christian god exist. But I belive he belongs to a pantheon of other gods. I do not belive in hell or heaven. And I do not belive that God will be my salvation. I believe that as long as I live a good 'moral' life, that I will be rewarded. If not in this life, then in my next life. And I believe in Karma. Or more specific...the Rule of Three: What ye send out, comes back to thee I dont have a name for my godess, even though others would choose to name their gods, like Hera, Hestia, Freja, or whatever godess/god they call for in their chants and prayers. My godess, is both feminim and masculine. Both good and evil, right and wrong. It is natures way to be both, so why not my god? I belive that deity(?)is not only outside of our realm, or plane of existance, but that it is found within every living thing and all that supports it. Wiccans try to live in harmony with the Earth and all of it's creatures. Wicca itself, is an attempt to re-create European (mostly) Shamanistic Nature Religion, adapting it to fit our modern lives I am a witch, but only in the sense that ALL wiccans are witches, but all witches are not wiccan. will explain that in PM if anyone is interested to know.. "And ye harm none, do as ye will" is the most important rule in wicca, and suggests that any behavior that harms none,is morally acceptable. Harm is here defined by anything that takes away, or works against an individual's free will. It is the wiccans choice to be good or bad. I truly belive that each and everyone must find what they belive in themselves. And I also belive that ALL religions are just different paths to the same truths. I still belive in angels, they are good spirits, guides. Like I said. It is difficult to explain. I think I am effected still by my christian upbringing. It might seem hypocritical, but I like going to church and light candles. I talk with "my christian priest" sometimes, and he still "have hope" that I will give up my nonsense, but is pleased that I have baptised my son in church, and intend to let him go to sundayschool and so on. He will make up his own mind later in life, and if he is happy being christian, then I will not see anything wrong in it. Just as long as MY believes get equal respect. Now this will be interesting... Last time I got into a discussion I was told that I will burn in hell for being a witch. ;D Lets hope we can keep it civil.
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Post by StolenThunder on Mar 21, 2002 14:25:35 GMT -5
Just a brief point here. Yes, they are certainly belief systems, however, they are those that usually have a grounding in science - in our perception of reality. Stuff that we can do, that has evidence, that we can prove.
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EvilTree
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 21, 2002 14:26:50 GMT -5
*puts away the burning stake* ;D ;D I was brought to be more or less evagelical Christian. *hears the groans* ;D And I did have an opionated sense of... wrongness towards other religions and supernatural... phenomenon not by Christians, because I assumed that if it's not from God, then it's from Satan or whatever. But as I learned more, I learned that even in the Bible, not everything has been learned by us humans. I believe that the Bible has not been completely understood yet, perhaps because only God can understand fully it's meaning. I do not know. I intend to ask God someday though. So, I leave a lot of room for error and reasoning. That means I allow some other gods to exist, whether it be Allah, Zeus, the Laughing Monkey, whatever, and that they may also have supernatural powers that they give to their followers. If God gives supernatural powers to his followers, why not them? Btw, despite comical silliness of a lot of teleevangelists laying hands on people and claim they get healed and whatnot, they DO happen. You have my word on it. I believe that you have to be a little nutty to be a Christian, because to an outsider, or even some Christians, they never quite see, or understand what the heck God is doing. God, IMO, is one really devious and sneaky person who has that poker face on all the time and makes you really work to understand what he is doing. All I know is that I sometimes have hard time understanding that dude. He gives me headache. It's a little Catch-22 with Christianity, from an non Christian view. To get the full benefits of God stuff, you gotta be a fully committed Christian. But to be a fully committed Christian, you gotta see and understand, some of God's power and his doings. Well, all I know is that my God works for me. And my God is still better than yours. ;D
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Post by Aurian on Mar 21, 2002 14:33:44 GMT -5
Your Gods better than mine? sure why not. And please, no jokes about burning stakes..
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Post by UltimateTrekker on Mar 21, 2002 14:47:17 GMT -5
The hardest part about debating with Christians (some at least, not all) is that no matter what point you can bring up, they have the best fall back ever. God's will. If I have one unanswerable question, I'm wrong, but if they can't answer 90% of what I ask, it's "God's will" (note, most people I debate with are too smart to fall into that hole and DO have answers, because they've thought of the same questions.
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 21, 2002 14:47:40 GMT -5
Now this will be interesting... Last time I got into a discussion I was told that I will burn in hell for being a witch. ;D Lets hope we can keep it civil. I may not agree with your beliefs, Aurian but I do respect the fact that you've attached on to a set of spiritual values. So many times I talk to people who called themselves an agnostic, but are...for a lack of a better word...too lazy to find the Truth. They've never read the Bible or the Koran or the Book of Mormon, etc. They've never gone to a church or synagogue. They've never prayed or meditated. They just settle into this happy little agnostic comfort zone without any spiritual compass. Simply put, this is the most important decision a human being ever has to make, but they'd rather live in their own little world eating chips and watching TV.
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Post by Gnom on Mar 21, 2002 14:55:27 GMT -5
I'm not Wiccan, I officially belong to good, old-fashioned Lutheran church, but Aurian still quite adeptly described my belief a few posts above [of which I thank her ]. Whether you call it God, Allah, Goddess, Fate, Higher Power or Computer, it's all the same.
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 21, 2002 15:02:43 GMT -5
The hardest part about debating with Christians (some at least, not all) is that no matter what point you can bring up, they have the best fall back ever. God's will. If I have one unanswerable question, I'm wrong, but if they can't answer 90% of what I ask, it's "God's will" (note, most people I debate with are too smart to fall into that hole and DO have answers, because they've thought of the same questions. I used that line to break up with a girl in high school, but I think that's the last time I used it. ;D I believe the term "God's will" only applies to those who accept it. That is, God has a path that he wants my life to follow. I can take it or not...it's my choice. However, I know that if I choose not to, I'm on my own. If I make the wrong choices, there's no blaming God for the poor decisions that I've made. God didn't want create a bunch of robots that would just mindlessly follow him, nor did he create a world where he controls every little thing. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that every little thing happens because of "God's will." I believe sometimes things just happen.
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Post by Aurian on Mar 21, 2002 15:03:29 GMT -5
Thank you Mentat. I agree with you about agnostics. But it is their choice. *smiles at Gnomm* thank you!
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EvilTree
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Post by EvilTree on Mar 21, 2002 16:36:00 GMT -5
Sometimes it's hard to understand God's will... But it's not an excuse for every argument that a Christian cannot defeat. I believe that all philosophy (religion is philosophy, right? ) and science has one thing in common: to seek knowledge and to find the answer that makes sense. If you cannot debate and explain your beliefs because you're too lazy, then someone should borrow Santy's frying pan and whack him or her in the head. And yes, my God is still better than yours, because I, EvilTree said so. ;D
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Post by Aurian on Mar 21, 2002 16:43:19 GMT -5
I will not argue with you Yohan, but you really should respect others views too. I am sure your god does not need you to look down on the other gods.. they might not even be real.. Now I know that we live in a world where Christianity is an OLD and common religion. I know that it is the ONLY really big religion in my country. But age does not make a religion any more valid, nor does political support, numbers of followers, or material holdings of it's temple.
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Post by Mentat_Tir on Mar 21, 2002 17:19:46 GMT -5
Whether you call it God, Allah, Goddess, Fate, Higher Power or Computer, it's all the same. Thanks, Gnomm. I forgot what the topic was for a moment. ;D
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