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Post by AlexanderTheGreat on Dec 10, 2001 8:47:09 GMT -5
What would you call Culluh, Seska, Jonas, Tal Seles, Carey, Ayala, Vorik... Yes they were recurring characters, and some were indeed great characters, but generally compared to those of DS9 like Garak, Rom, Nog, Kai Winn, Dukat, Damar, Brunt, Nagus Zek, Female Founder, Weyoun, Tora Ziyal, Moogie, Kassidy Yates etc, they didn't have as much depth. I wish they did. Tal Celes seemed like quite an interesting character but unfortunately she featured predominantly in only one episode, I think it was "Good Shepherd" and spoke a few lines in some others. Maybe she could have been in a relationship with Harry - that way she could have appeared more. She was a really interesting character, i wish she was in the show a little more - thought she was GREAT! It was the same for Ayala. He was kind of always in the backgound. How great would it have been if he appeared just a little more. Maybe he could have been friends with Chakotay or Tom and Harry. Characters like Vorik, Carey, Seska, and Culluh featured predominantly before the 4th season, before Seven's arrival on the ship. But after that they (the ones on the ship - Vorik, Carey) didn't appear enough to really get to know them and to care for them as people. Most of the attention was on Seven and the Doc, which bpthered me a little, but i thought it was okay beacuse some of the BEST voyager episodes were those featuring the Doc and Seven. It also meant there was more room for more action packed eps, which was great when i just wanted to sit back and enjoy the show. Getting back on topic - Maybe Axum could have been involved in Seven's arc and that way he would appear in the Seven episodes. It would have been quite interesting to see Seven deal with her emotions for the last season of Voyager. But you know what! A little part of me wanted Seven to end up with the Doc. Especially after "Someone To Watch Over Me". I don't get why the writers do an ep like that, where Seven and the Doc could get together, and than they forget it all (the chemistry between Seven and the Doc, for Endgame and put her with Chakotay. But i know there are a lot of ppl who thought Seven and the Doc weren't suited.
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Post by Holodoc on Dec 10, 2001 20:55:36 GMT -5
Borg Queen, Naomi, Icheb...
You have to consider two things: actor's availability, and the format of the series itself. The latter demanded there be minimal recurring contact. The whole Kazon/Seska thing was stupid because a technologically inferior race kept up with Voyager for over two years. At least the Hirogen as a race had an excuse, but if the same character from a season 4 ep showed up in season 7, it would have rendered the whole notion absurd.
btw: my personal stance re Doc & Seven was that I wanted to see their relationship to its originally intended result. Their two sequences together in Virtuoso made it clear that Seven had strong feelings for the Doctor, unrealized or otherwise. When Ken Biller took over as exec prod, he wanted to squelch that. I understand he admitted in interviews that he didn't like the EMH, although I've never seen any with him. So Axum was conjured up to take the Doctor's place.
You can tell Seven's change of heart was artificial. She had a rapport with the Doctor and in turn was his greatest advocate. They had technology in common throughout Season 4 & 5. In Season 7, her tone changed. As the crew came to accept the Doctor as a fully realized person, Seven would make occasional remarks which trivialized his behavior as preprogrammed etc. It was clear that their cameraderie was being dissolved and technology became the gap.
It was a rotten deal, especially since it also impacted on the Janeway/Chakotay fans. That too was pretty stupid. He held out until they COULD finally get together - when her captaincy no longer got in the way? Meanwhile Seven acting like the perky bashful schoolgirl... arrgh!
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ElanaM
NX-01
La Grande Brassiere & Sorcerer
Posts: 3
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Post by ElanaM on Dec 15, 2001 7:42:33 GMT -5
To be honest, the C7 relationship doesn't actually bother me other than it was botched and brought out only in the last episode. All the heat aside, as a couple they make sense. (Elana runs and hides from the rotten tomatoes being thrown from the gallery).
Having said that, I would have had no problem with J/C either except that perhaps that the timing was and never would be right. Even back on Earth they would be operating almost in 2 different spheres (especially if Janeway becomes an Admiral).
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Dec 15, 2001 7:52:50 GMT -5
^^^ Given the way the writers handled J/C, I agree with you, Elana. Janeway had set herself apart from the crew, including Chakotay, and it was doubtful that Chakotay was going to convince her to do otherwise. It would be improper for him to try to establish a relationship with someone below him in the chain of command -- which is everyone -- so Seven becomes the (excuse me, Tuvok) logical choice.
This crew desperately needed the matchmaker from Fiddler on the Roof. ;D
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Post by Christina on Dec 15, 2001 8:04:52 GMT -5
*cough* Now, I'd better say up front that what I know of Endgame has been entirely gleaned from the story synopsis, Zeke's 5 minute version, and comments on boards.
However, here goes.
He did not appear to go after her as a romantic interest. She seems to be the prime mover in this one. I think this is reasonable given Human Error and the time together in Natural Law. However, this does not make the relationship a done thing, despite the Admiral's comments. After all, she is in the throes of changing history.
All bar one of Chakotay's relationships during the series have been the woman making the moves (yes, I would too, given half a chance with him) - the odd one out being Unforgettable, when he eventually went after her, and got miffed when she left.
So, I will take comfort in the last page of the novelisation of the story, where it is Janeway and Chakotay standing together at the end, with her gazing up into his eyes hoping that she won't always be 'Captain' to him. And the Virtual Series 8 that has killed C/7 very quickly (also in favour of J/C - but nobodys perfect).
I loathe C/7. But then I don't like 7, do I guys? So I am doubly biased from the start.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Dec 15, 2001 8:30:46 GMT -5
^^^ Hey, at least you can be objective about your subjectivities... ;D
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Post by Christina on Dec 15, 2001 8:58:55 GMT -5
We counsellors need to understand ourselves in order to stand a chance of understanding others. ;D
I'm just too reasonable for my own good, or a good argument come to that.
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Post by Hermione on Dec 15, 2001 9:16:45 GMT -5
Christina and anyone else who hasn't seen it, a spoiler or two: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The theory that she's the one making all the moves doesn't quite hold up. At one point, Seven tries to break up with him, and he talks her out of it. Granted, she was in a bit of distress at the time, but it still indicates he wasn't entirely passive about the relationship. Perhaps that can be interpreted as making C/7 a relationship where Chakotay can finally be an equal. But as a J/Cer myself, I think I'm going to run out and find a copy of that novel.
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Post by Christina on Dec 15, 2001 9:22:30 GMT -5
Maybe he was influenced by the 'predestination' idea from the Admiral about the two of them?
Whatever.
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Post by Peter_Pevensie on Dec 15, 2001 10:46:19 GMT -5
Don't even get me started on predestination... ;D
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Post by Holodoc on Dec 15, 2001 20:38:18 GMT -5
We counsellors need to understand ourselves in order to stand a chance of understanding others. Christina ... counselor... not the Christina on USS Aventura? Nahh couldn't be... Well, like them or no, there is no rationale to justify Chakotay & Seven of Nine. Like I said: it was all artificially induced, and there is no better hint of that than the fact that there is no basis for a relationship. They were incongruous up to the teaser for Void and that bizarredly placed hohummer, Natural Law.
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Post by Christina on Dec 16, 2001 4:42:18 GMT -5
You got it Doc.
(USS Aventura? Never heard of it.)
My theory is that SHE just wanted to experiment further with human relationships and cos her Holo-Chakotay was the one she got on best with (despite the massive clanger of having him eat meat), she just went for the real version.
It has no future. Relationships like that very very rarely work. One partner just manipulating the other for their own purposes will lead to resentment and possibly anger. But she has to learn - the hard way.
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Post by Holodoc on Dec 16, 2001 7:08:00 GMT -5
My theory is that SHE just wanted to experiment further with human relationships and cos her Holo-Chakotay was the one she got on best with (despite the massive clanger of having him eat meat), she just went for the real version. That's where the whole episode is wrong. She said herself Unimatrix Zero was the reason. She missed Axum, not Chakotay. The whole Human Error EPISODE was moot. If he wasn't a prospective mate before then, Chakotay certainly wouldn't have been a choice to substitute for an entirely incongruent character now. Besides, the whole concept of her recreating an existing character would suggest it could have been just as easy to make a holoaxum into a pretend member of the crew - who could eat lamb and chicken. ;D Chakotay simply had no place in that aspect of the show. And if it was to pit one crewman against another, that never happened either. So there was absolutely no reason within continuity, characterization, or competent storytelling. It was entirely done to appease Beltran. Even Ryan expressed objection to the concept in interviews following the series.
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Post by Christina on Dec 16, 2001 7:36:02 GMT -5
I don't think Endgame was done to appease Beltran. He is on record as calling the writers of the final show 'stupid' for giving them that story. And he didn't take the filming of the C/7 scenes seriously at all. Can't say I blame him, either.
Human Error was the 'shut up Beltran about kissing Jeri' show IMO.
But what do I know, I'm out here in the UK with just board posts for information, and no inside line to anyone who could tell us the truth about the situations we're discussing.
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Post by Holodoc on Dec 16, 2001 8:22:41 GMT -5
I don't think Endgame was done to appease Beltran. He is on record as calling the writers of the final show 'stupid' for giving them that story. And he didn't take the filming of the C/7 scenes seriously at all. Can't say I blame him, either. Human Error was the 'shut up Beltran about kissing Jeri' show IMO. But what do I know, I'm out here in the UK with just board posts for information, and no inside line to anyone who could tell us the truth about the situations we're discussing. Human Error was the "Stop whining about never getting anything to do, Beltran" episode. Beltran never specified what he did or didn't like about Endgame (although we all know its failings. Then again, we didn't get a nice weekly paycheck from Paramount at the time). For all we know, C/7 might have been the only thing he thought was good about it. Besides, when did he ever take filming scenes seriously? That's how he got into the lack of lines rut in the first place.
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