O'Brien on DS9: Your Thoughts

[Elric3960]

As promised, this is a companion thread of the "Worf on DS9" thread.

Miles Edward O'Brien.  What can we say about him?  He started out as a navigator on TNG if we are to believe that the officer addressed as Conn by Picard in "Encounter at Farpoint."  He was definitely stationed there in "All Good Things..."  He later appeared as a Transporter Operator and later as an engineer in episodes like "The Best of Both Worlds Part II."  He got married in "Data's Day" and became a father of a daughter in a TNG ep (can't remember which one) and a son in a DS9 ep (again, my mind's a blank). In "Emisary," he was posted as the Chief Engineer of DS9 with an Ensign's commission.  His wife Keiko became a "school marm" for awhile before returning to her original profession of Exobotanist.  In "Hide and Q" the Q referred to him as "one of the little people."  Do you think that O'Brien became a more interesting character in DS9 because he had more of a chance to grow there or do you think that he was just as interesting in TNG and it wouldn't have made any difference if he stayed there?

Same parameters as the other thread:  What did O'Brien do for DS9 and what did DS9 do for O'Brien, if anything?  Would the show have been just as entertaining without him?  

I would invite the lovely Ana Ng, or anyone else who possesses the DS9 Companion, to comment on how it describes the decision regarding having O'Brien transferred from one show to the other.  Was it the "familiar face" requirement that most spinoffs, especially Trek spinoffs, require to launch this show or was it the idea of giving a supporting character "more room for growth" or was it a long-overdue recognition of a talented actor's ability to make the viewers care about the part that he plays?

Comments, anyone?

[Christina]

Molly was born in 10F during 'Disaster' season 5 -2368 and Kirayoshi in the Begotten season 5 2373.

(Nana actually gave birth during the filming of Let he who is without sin...  )

they don't say much about the casting, except once they saw Sid as Bashir they knew they had a good pairing there with Colm as O'Brien.
"Behr had always liked [O'Brien] ... and longed to do more with him........we already had Colm as the Irish man of the people."

Make of that what you will.

I think, really, that O'Brien is the central human character of the series. And the writers loved making him suffer, so he got great stories. Not everyone in StarFleet gets to be a Captain, but there's always a demand for good technicians.....

And he's the only family person in Trek. We see him go through the anguish of separation from Keiko, having two children and raising them in space, living through a war, being a typical male with his 'boys nights out' with Bashir.

He is the only truly real character there, someone for all of us C21 mortals to relate to. And the writers and producers did a great job with him. Not over the top like the Sisko/Prophet twist, but kept him completely human. The move to DS9 was the best thing for him. IMO


edited to get rid of unexpected smilies, grrr

[Elric3960]

Thanks for filling in the gaps, Christina, and giving the DS9 Companion input as well as your own, unexpected smilies notwithstanding.  

I can understand the "Irish man of the people" reference.  It's too easy to create a character that represents the noblest characteristics of a society, but the trick is to make him/her down-to-earth enough to prevent her/him from being emotionally inaccessible to the viewer.  Roddenberry probably understood that when he created the TOS characters.  While Kirk was the Captain, he was also "human."  While McCoy was the Chief Medical Officer, he was also "human."  While Scotty was the Chief Engineer, he was also "human."  They each had a different take on "being human," but they had a chance to explore their humanity and take the viewers along for the ride.

I think that Sisko did that during his communications with The Prophets in "Emissary" but didn't get a chance to do it with the other characters until the second season.  Bashir also seemed too impersonal, dangerous for a healer, but we had a chance to know him more when we explored his mind and find out what made him different from other "humans."  O'Brien seemed to be the only approachable, guileless "human" character on the show and, to some fans, the most likeable.  He has his secrets, as was shown in "The Wounded," but they didn't give him a sinister tint so much as give the impression that he saw a side of himself that he didn't want to see and hated an entire race of people for forcing him to see it.  The generation before mine who witnessed Vietnam first-hand can identify with this, I'm sure.

Next....

[UltimateTrekker]

Just watched the only 3 part story in Trek (granted, the End of DS9 and had a sort of 4 episode arc at the end, but the were truly "to be continued" episodes.

The Homecoming, The Circle, The Siege

When they are forced to abondon DS9, a few stay on board.  We get to see Obrien say goodbye to Keiko and Molly.. she begs for him to stay and his response, "We can't just let the Cardi's have [DS9]"

Very good to see that scene, to see him stay against his families wishes (not that it's the BEST choice, but it was HIS choice)  DS9 did a good job on not trying to moralize like the other series did, they simply showed us a story and let us figure it out (most of the time)  Other shows (that shall remain nameless) tending to force morals down our throut, but unfortunatley they seemed to change story to story.)

As for Obrien on DS9 as opposed to a new character, another pull from TNG, that I think worked a bit.

My though on Obrien was that out of 3 engineers (at the time) 2 were from Great Britten (Irish and Scottish)  Seemed interesting to me.

[Elric3960]

Stephenson, Faraday, Watt, Davy, and others whose names escape me.  I'm sure the lady from the UK will fill us in on the rest of her fellow countrymen who pushed the envelop in the fields of engineering and physics.

Scott and O'Brien definitely keep the legacy alive in Trek.

I was particularly fascinated when O'Brien and Bashir sang "Jerusalem," a hymn that most non-Brits never heard of.  I'm curious how our friends from "across the Pond" felt when they saw and heard that scene.

[dllmzca]

Hurrah, an O'Brien thread!

While I can't quote the DS9 Companion chapter and verse, I believe that O'Brien made the transition from TNG to DS9 because Behr liked his appeal as 'Everyman.'

As for what DS9 did for O'Brien, it fleshed him out more fully than TNG ever did. On TNG, he was a minor recurring character where he was featured in only a couple of the episodes.

In terms of what O'Brien did for DS9: well, I think he did quite a lot. Because he wasn't written larger than life, he gave many viewers a character that they could identify with. He wasn't an exotic alien. He had no grand destiny to fufill. He was the guy who kept the place from falling apart. In many ways, he could be one of us, today. He had prejudices (against Cardassians) he preferred plain, simple food. He griped, ocassionaly, without being over the top. You get the idea...

He also provided the first significant example of what it is like to have a family as well as be a member of Starfleet. The writers were also brave, I believe, in portraying a marriage that was less than perfect. There is no denying that Miles and Keiko had some problems and significant moments of conflict in their marriage. Again, this impressed me with it's realism.

I remember the ep. in which O'Brien is crawling around in service tunnels looking for the escaped shapeshifting creature. At one point he reflects on how, when Keiko asks him how his days go, that he usually just says 'fine.' He even goes so far as to say that he thinks that she's not really interested in hearing a true answer. Now, how many of us have been in that boat before? TNG is sometimes accused of painting situations in too perfect a light. DS9 could never be accused of this...

Of course, one could not undervalue the example of friendship provided by O'Brien with his best mate, Bashir. Without going on about it ad infinatuum, I found that O'Brien/Bashir gave us the finest and most believable portrait of friendship in the Trek franchise (tied only by the Kirk/Spock frienship from TOS.)

In short, O'Brien gave some of us the opportunity to see what we might be like living in the Star Trek universe. I don't know how many of you follow TrekBBS, but in the DS9 Forum's Survivor series, O'Brien finished second... behind only Sisko. That says alot to me about both the character's impact and appeal...

(Now, I have to confess that I also have a bit of a thing for pug-ugly Irish guys, so my views may be influenced by that fact.  ;D )

  Cheers, Elric3960, for starting the thread!

[Elric3960]

Cheers back to you, dllmzca, for inspiring me to do it.

I admit that I'm curious about your comment regarding Irish men.  "Culleens" tend to fascinate me, especially redheads with freckles!  Is it the fact that they're from another culture or their unique appearance that make them intriguing, do you think?

[UltimateTrekker]

I'd tell you my thought on the desire for blondes and redheads... but that's a LITTLE to dirty-graphic for open board discussion...

OK, here's a safer version...

(edit) I tried but it's just not possible.. El, I'll try to sum in up in one phrase asked of Kathy Griffin by Craig Kilborn (of the Daily Show during his 5 questions)

"For the redheaded Kathy Griffin:  Does the carpet match the curtains?"

There, I've said to much.

[dllmzca]

Elric3960 said:

Cheers back to you, dllmzca, for inspiring me to do it.

I admit that I'm curious about your comment regarding Irish men.  "Culleens" tend to fascinate me, especially redheads with freckles!  Is it the fact that they're from another culture or their unique appearance that make them intriguing, do you think?

For me, I think that the appeal lies in the Irish character. As a teen, I spent a lot of time with Irish ex-pats. here, in Canada. I developed a real appreciation for the quick wit and candor of the Irish people that I knew. As for my particular attraction toward men with Meaney's looks, I just find that kind of lummox appealing. Often, I've found that bruisers like that hide hearts of gold under their gruff exteriors. Also, and I mean no offense to anyone, but I've never found 'pretty' or slightly built men appealing: they usually look too delicate for my personal taste...

[Elric3960]

^^^I think I understand what you mean.  Strong women tend to intrigue me more than extremely gentle ones for similar reasons.  The firmer the berry, the sweeter the juice.  OOPS!  I think I said too much as well, UT!

[Christina]

The majority of Ireland is still comparatively rural, I believe. There's very little of the cynical, me first, aggressive city dweller in that lovely 'soft' land. Maybe that's the appeal? A nation who are still in touch with the land that feeds them? (yes it's a wild generalisation but...)

As for O'Brien singing Jerusalem. That surprised me, as it is very 'English' (not British). Singing 'Minstrel Boy' in the other episode with the demented Captain (duh, memory failure) was very Irish, and brought tears to my eyes, IIRC.

And dllmzca.............Miles ain't ugly either!

[Elric3960]

The demented Captain in "The Wounded" was Maxwell.  The first time I heard "Jerusalem" sang was on a Monty Python's Flying Circus installment and the second time was in the brilliant film "The Man Who Fell To Earth."  The concept of England being "The New Jerusalem" is a charming conceit and I applaud the composers for creating it.  It was equally charming seeing a Colonial and an Irishman singing it together.

I'm curious about the distinction between "English" and "British."  Please humour an ignorant Yank and elaborate, my dear.

Incidentally, "Minstrel Boy" touched me too as I'm a fan of old war ballads as well as music in general.

[Christina]

OOff difficult.

I'm currently reading 'The English' by Jeremy Paxman to try and get a simple answer to that one myself.
Being English is more about your attitude to the world than where you were born or who your parents are.

British is someone living / born in these Isles. Just like America, we have African British, Asian British, Caribbean British... et al. The non-Caucasian immigrants never call them selves anything- English, so far as I can tell. Let me read more of the book, and then see if I feel a Neutral Zone topic coming on.

[dllmzca]

Christina said:

As for O'Brien singing Jerusalem. That surprised me, as it is very 'English' (not British). Singing 'Minstrel Boy' in the other episode with the demented Captain (duh, memory failure) was very Irish, and brought tears to my eyes, IIRC.

And dllmzca.............Miles ain't ugly either!

I believe that they used Jerusalem because they could not get permission to use (or pay the steep royalties for)some other songs that they had wanted. I believe 'Louie, Louie' might have been one of the original choices.

In a way, I thought it was rather neat that they ended up using Jerusalem, particularly in terms of Miles' character. I looked at it as an indication that, by the time of DS9, that some of the old animosities might finally have been laid to rest.

And, Christina? I still think that Miles has a pug's appeal in terms of his looks: and I think he's adorable...  ;D

[Elric3960]

Odo once mentioned in an episode that "Louie Louie" was one of O'Brien's favorite songs, so that could be possible.  I don't think that the lyrics beyond the chorus were that memorable to warrant copyright protection, but that's just me.

In all fairness, they were dressed as British WWI barnstormer pilots, so they were "in character" at least.

And Dllmzca I would just say that O'Brien looks "rugged" rather than "delicate" so that Christina would get off your back! LOL!